64. Career Transitions: Embrace Change with Confidence with Ava Lala
You're sitting in a job that drains your energy, questioning if your career path even makes sense anymore. Maybe you've been telling yourself you're stuck, that the random jumps in your career story are somehow embarrassing, or that you need to feel ready before making any changes.
From networking as an introvert to talking about our accomplishments without feeling braggy, career transitions require a unique set of skills we're never taught. Today, I'm speaking with Ava Lala, a career transition coach who discovered these truths firsthand when her team got laid off while she was interviewing for a new role. Instead of taking the obvious next step, she used her severance package to bet on herself and launch her own coaching business.
Listen in this week to discover why confidence is actually a lagging indicator (meaning you don't need to feel ready to start), how to reframe your career narrative so those job jumps make perfect sense, and practical strategies for surviving a job you want to leave while building your exit plan.
Want to start making your current job suck less while you're waiting to quit? Download the FREE accompanying action guide for this episode, by completing the form below!
What You’ll Learn from this Episode:
Why mindset and mental resilience must come before any career transition strategy.
How to reframe your "all over the place" career story into a confident narrative that makes sense.
The difference between confidence and self-confidence.
How treating career moves as experiments removes the fear of failure.
A simple mindset shift that can transform feeling "stuck" into feeling empowered.
Listen to the Full Episode:
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Full Episode Transcript:
If you've ever felt stuck in a job that drains your energy, questioned whether your career path makes any sense, or wondered how to talk about yourself confidently in interviews, today's guest is speaking directly to you. I'm excited to have Ava Lala on the podcast today. Ava's career story perfectly illustrates that sometimes life's unexpected detours lead us exactly where we need to be. Ava was in the middle of interviewing for a new corporate role when her entire team got laid off. And instead of taking the obvious next step, she did something that required incredible courage.
She used her severance package to bet on herself and launch her own career coaching business. Today, Ava is a career transition coach who helps professionals navigate the complex journey from feeling stuck to finding work that truly fulfills them. What I love about Ava's approach is that she gets it on a deeply personal level, right? She knows what it's like to feel trapped in a role that doesn't light you up, and she understands the unique skill set that career transitions actually require. Skills we are never, really taught but desperately need.
As a fellow coach who works in the career transition space, I was immediately drawn to Ava's philosophy that confidence is a lagging indicator, meaning you don't need to feel ready in order to make a change. You just need to trust yourself enough to take the first step and figure it out as you go. In today's conversation, we're talking about everything from reframing your career narrative to make sense of those seemingly random job jumps to practical strategies for surviving a job you want to leave while you're building your exit plan.
All of that and more. I can't wait for you to hear Ava's story and learn from her. I've learned so much from Ava being in her network, and I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
Welcome to How to Quit Your Job, the podcast for moms ready to ditch the nine-to-five and build a life and business they love. I’m your host, Jenna Rykiel. Let’s go.
Jenna: Ava, thank you so much for chatting with me today. This episode has been a long time coming. What I love about our work is that we are both essentially in the business of career transitions. So I know you work primarily with folks who are wanting more purpose and fulfillment in transitioning to another corporate role. And of course, I help moms transition out of corporate. But either way you look at it, these are really big changes that our clients are navigating and can definitely create a lot of obstacles and challenges. So in your experience of working with clients in this career transition phase, what have you seen are the biggest obstacles that need to be overcome?
Ava: Yeah. Well, thanks, first of all, for having me, Jenna. I'm excited to be here. I think what people don't necessarily realize is just how much your mindset plays into this. And so that's where I think you and I definitely align. We share a very similar philosophy. Because a job search or any sort of career transition is really an exercise in confidence, right? Being able to feel confident that you can navigate this change, that even though right now it looks daunting, you can break it up into different pieces.
And that you're not stuck. I feel we tell ourselves that quite a bit. So I think people don't realize just how important it is to start first and foremost with their mindset and getting that to feel in a much better place, whether you're in a role where you've got a jerky boss or you're feeling burned out, all of that stuff. You have to shore up your mental resiliency before you can start to make that change.
But the other thing I have realized from my own experience is just how much of the process of a job search is a set of unique and very different skill sets that you need, right? Networking is a different skill, and especially as someone who's an introvert, that is not something that necessarily comes super easy to someone like me, and that's a skill to learn how to do. How to talk about yourself in these three to five-minute sound bites where you are having to sell yourself in a way that most of the time we don't talk about ourselves that way, right? Because we've been trained to not be braggy.
Well, this is a time where you're going to have to learn to talk about your accomplishments in a way that's both authentic but yet confident and shows those results and things like that. And so all of these are different skills. The thing is we've never been taught them, and we only use these a handful of times in our life. So it makes sense that for a lot of people, a career transition is a point of struggle. But one of the things I love that I think came from Marie Forleo is everything is figure-out-able. And so, again, this goes back to why your resilience and your mindset is so important because even though it's a skill you might not have, with the right attitude and mindset, you can go in and still figure out how to acquire that skill.
Jenna: Yeah, I think about mindset and especially the resilience factor as being such a transferable skill, no matter what industry you're in, no matter whether it's entrepreneurship or the corporate world. It's such a valuable asset. I'm curious, there's something you said—I run into this all the time with my clients—where there really is this struggle in talking about ourselves. I'm talking to clients about talking about themselves in the way of really selling their services and their value to potential clients and customers. And it sounds like you similarly work with clients in getting better at talking about themselves. Are there strategies or ways that you help them to do that better?
Ava: Yes, because I think it is quite true that being able to articulate your brand and what you offer is a really important element that helps other people connect and feel safe. They'll pick up on your confidence. And so I think one of the first things that I help my clients do is think about their career narrative and getting them to really feel confident in that and to have a story that makes sense to them. Because so many times I hear people come and say, "I feel like my career's been all over the place," right? That's again, just a made-up thought that is not really serving them.
And so how can you re-engineer your story in a way that it makes sense to you, you love that, and then when you deliver that, it is so much more confident to other people? So, for example, I've had multiple career pivots, and from the outside, it might look like, "What? What are all these disparate things?" But I have done the work to figure out that story around, "First, I started here, but then I had this moment, and that led me to that, and that led me to that," right? And so when I describe that career journey, I feel really good about it, and it all makes sense to me. So I'm able to deliver that then in a way that has confidence and makes sense, so the other person's not going to question that.
So I think doing that work to understand whether you are starting your business and you need to talk about the genesis behind that business and what led you to do that, or where you are in your career and where that has led you to, I think taking that time to think about how you tell that story is really important. And sometimes, I will say, it is a little bit tricky to sometimes do this on your own. So I love this quote also that's, "It's sometimes hard to read the label from inside the jar." And I recognize this even in myself early on. Even as a marketer, I had a problem thinking about how to market myself because I was just too close to it.
So that's what prompted me to seek out my first coach, Marty, who also helped me think about how I want to position myself for that next career change. So it makes sense that sometimes you might need a partner or a thought partner, someone to bounce that off of who can see you a little bit more objectively and pull out those threads and help you create that narrative.
Jenna: Yeah, I love that because that's true with everything in life, right? It's the story we're telling ourselves about the past impacts how we see ourselves, and it impacts how we see this entire journey. There's so much power in being able to reframe the story, especially in our career where we can, as you said, feel really good about it. Because if we feel good about it, then we talk about it more confidently in an interview, we talk about it more confidently with potential clients, we talk about it with friends and family in a way that feels really good rather than feeling like we're lost or it's embarrassing that we've jumped around, or it's embarrassing that we've taken a break, or any of those things. We really can change the narrative, as you're saying.
Ava: Yeah. And here's another thing, here's an interesting example that I often use, too. If you think about going into an interview setting, anybody who's interviewing at that late stage can do the job. Or similarly, if you have a business, you're probably in a competitive space where there are other people who are offering the same thing you do. And so the analogy I use is to think about handbags.
They all do the same job, but a Birkin that sells for $78,000 has a different brand proposition than a Kate Spade bag that sells for $200. And that's different from the Nine West bag that you can pick up at Marshall's for $30, right? They all do the same thing. They have vastly different brand promises and the aura and what they're trying to solve for. And so I think that's something for you to think about: How do you want to position yourself depending on who it is that you're selling to, if you're an entrepreneur, or who you're selling to in an interview setting, right? And who is hiring you, and what is it that they need, and how can you make sure you align as best as possible to that?
Jenna: Yeah, so it sounds like part of it is, A, just knowing your brand or allowing it to evolve and really being intentional about the story and narrative that is going to be evolving your brand, right? The other thing, when you mention the handbags, that I like to say is not everybody's your person, right? So we all know that there are certain people who will buy that $78,000 bag. That is their thing. They love those bags, they love the quality, they love what it means for them.
And then there are other people who would never even consider it. And so whatever you are going after, especially I think about this in entrepreneurship, it's that only really 10% of people are your people. So don't get caught up in the 90% who aren't meant for you. Just focus on how you can connect with those 10%. How do I position my story? How do I talk about my career and credibility and what led me here? But really thinking about, I'm not trying to connect with every single person. I'm just trying to figure out how to connect with the 10% who are my people.
You've talked about confidence quite a bit, or that has been a buzzword. So I'm curious, what are some of the most limiting beliefs that you see in some of the women transitioning careers? And maybe a little bit about how you help them overcome those limiting beliefs.
Ava: Yeah. So there's a lot, and there's a lot that I had, too. So I think one of the—I don't know if you'd call it a limiting belief—but I think a belief that doesn't really help is saying, "I'm stuck." And I was guilty of this, too. But even just shifting the language slightly has a really powerful effect. So instead of just saying, "I'm stuck," something like, "Every week, I'm taking one small step to figure this out." Right? And it's just a slight reframe, but that again brings you back into power and control. Like, "I'm in control of this. I just need to take one small step," right? And so that can keep you moving forward.
I see a lot of people who tell me that they aren't excited about the work they're doing, but they keep going back and looking at job descriptions that are essentially the same thing. It's because it's the known and comfortable and familiar, and it makes sense because your brain is like, "Yeah, I know how to do that. That's safe." And so working with clients to really unpack what the fear is behind that. What would it mean to take a bigger job or do something different? And to really unpack, because at the end of the day, I think a lot of this comes down to a fear of failure.
And really helping to reframe that failure is really not a failure; it's just a set of learning, right? You now have different information that you didn't have before around are you a good fit for this type of work, or what type of culture do you need to thrive, or any number of things. So really unpacking some of the fear underneath it, because I think that's another element of that imposter syndrome, right? The fear of being found out that you're really not as good as people think you are. And so what does that actually mean, and how can you break that apart?
I think one of the things, I don't know, Jenna, if you relate to this, but I see kids and they're so fearless, right? Learning how to ride a bike, no one YouTubes it, researches it, talks to a friend, "Should I ride the bike or not?" right? Kids just get on and they do it. And somewhere along the way, as we turn into adults, we start to feel like, "Well, I can't do it before I'm ready." But actually, I talk about confidence being a lagging indicator. It comes only after you've done the thing a few times and you're like, "Oh, actually, that wasn't that bad," or, "Oh, I need to tweak this, but I'm getting better and better and better." And so confidence comes after you just start to do it, and you learn by doing. So that's a big thing that I help clients also remember.
Jenna: Confidence is, "I've done this thing and now I know I can do it, so I'm confident." And self-confidence is a different concept, which is, "I have never done this thing before, but I trust myself that no matter what happens, I will have my own back and I will be able to figure out what's next," right? Coming full circle to this, "Everything is figure-out-able." So if I have the self-confidence to try this career path that is completely new to me or this industry or whatever it is, and I fail terribly, whatever that means to each of us, right? I know that I can move forward. I know that it will be learning. I know that I'll have my own back to know what to do next.
And that really takes the teeth out of doing new things because we all lack confidence doing something new because that's how it works. We've never done it before. But having this self-confidence and trust in ourself to be able to pick up the pieces afterwards, learn from it, have the resilience, the mental resilience to keep going down whatever path, that is truly the golden ticket, I would say, of creating a career, a business, a life that you love, is being able to do something you've never done before and have your own back through it.
Ava: Yeah, and I think the benefit, Jenna, that you and I have is that we tend to work with individuals and women that are at least mid-career or who have had enough life experience to probably know some things about them. And I think that's where I would go back to. One of the questions I ask clients is, what do you know to be true about yourself or what do you like about yourself? And so, you know, one of the things that has come with age that I've learned about myself is that when I really focus, right, and I'm determined, there's very little that can deter me. It might take a long, long time, right?
And so if you go back to again, having going back to the self-confidence, what do you know to be true about yourself, right? You're super resilient, or you figure things out, or you can like, once you put your mind to something, you are determined and it always ends up working out for you. Like, those would be some of those things that I would hang on to in the, you know, your thoughts as you're going through this process and remind yourself because that's that self-confidence that you talked about, that belief in yourself.
Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. Like what is the value that you can add even if you've never done this exact thing before. I love that. So I want to switch gears a little bit because we have talked about this offline a bit and, you know, I had a whole podcast episode, episode four, one of the early ones about how to make work suck less. And I want to talk about it because so many of the people you work with, so many of the moms I work with, they really are trying to get out of, whether it be a toxic work environment, they're burnt out, they feel underappreciated, insert any number of reasons that we might be really disappointed in our current career and wanting to change it.
And I'm curious, how can somebody in your opinion, make work suck less? How can they get through this transition process where they're looking for a new career, they're looking for something else in whether it be corporate or starting their own business, but they still have to show up each day and get the paycheck and support their family and pay those bills. What are some tips or skills that they can embody to make that process a little less miserable? Or let's say to make it suck less, just to stay on brand.
Ava: I've definitely been there. And especially, you know, it's very, I was building the business on the side while I worked in a job and then it got to a point where I too was like, okay, I'm over this job. I need to get out. And so one of the first things that hopefully your audience knows from just from listening to you, but is a good reminder, is that nobody else creates how you feel. You are in charge of that, right? It is your interpretation of what your boss did or what your company just did, right?
And so if you have this thought, my boss is a jerk, everything that he or she does is filtered through that. And so once I started to recognize like, oh, I'm the one making myself feel miserable, I now had a choice. So I worked with my own coach and one of the things that helped me is I literally thought about, as I walked through my office doors, putting on a cape, right? And I told myself, I can play this role of an engaged employee for a short period of time, while my heart and my other side of me is focused on finding that new job and launching my business.
And so getting into, again, going back to the mindset and what you want to tell yourself, right? So, you know, another thought people could borrow is, this is paying the bills while I figure out what's next. Or this is giving me, you know, the space and time I need to do that. Or maybe my boss doesn't have the management skills and that's why she's being a micromanager, right? It's not on me. She doesn't know the skills and tools and she's never been taught, right? And starting to have some compassion. So I'd say the mindset part is one of them.
Two, again, for most women, we tend to probably do a lot. And so this might be the time to go back to doing 80% effort in your job so you can start to free up some time. And I know that feels really weird to tell people to do, but chances are, at some point in your career, you were probably giving 110%. So it's okay to now work a little less. And the other thing is you're doing a disservice to your company by staying there and not being an engaged employee, right? Somebody else would love to be in the spot that you are. And so if you're not engaged, you owe it to the company to do everything you can to get out and move on because someone else does want to be there who's going to give 110%.
And then the other thing I would say is, again, even if you're in that situation that you don't want to be, you can start living into your future self from now, right? So this is what I did was, I spent every morning when I was, again, really anxious to get out of my environment, spending 10 minutes envisioning the perfect interview and a really great type of culture. And I just thought about that and got into that space and again, that helped me bring and minimize the energy of the day job that I didn't really like, knowing that it was temporary. It was just a matter of time because I was already in that better scenario. So hopefully those are a couple of different things, both tactically as well as some mindset stuff to help you make that transition or feel good while you're in the process of making that transition.
Jenna: Right. Because one of the most important things, especially if you're trying to build a business on the side, you need that mental energy to be making the best decisions for your business and to be energized when you're working on your business. And so, you know, I always, I give the example of when we are constantly complaining about our job and how draining that feels. Not necessarily for the person we're talking to, although that is the case, but for us. And what I love is when people do start focusing on this new project, this new business, even if they feel like they can't add anything to their plate, it actually gives them so much more energy. It makes the plate bigger when they have something really inspiring and motivating and fulfilling to focus on.
And then yes, the corporate job that you have, you know, that you're building this exit plan with, is your ATM and it's funding your dreams and it's allowing you to have energy for that next project. So I absolutely love that. I would also say, you know, to your point of, I completely agree, if you are not committed to your role, absolutely find something else, but you owe it to the company, but you also owe it to yourself, right? It's like when you are staying in a position that just doesn't light you up to any degree, it's like, you either figure out how to make it work for you and figure out how to love it or you leave it, right? And you are empowered. You can make that choice. But yeah, absolutely, you absolutely owe it to yourself as well.
Ava: Yeah, you absolutely need to put yourself first.
Jenna: And to think about it as when you do put yourself first, there's a ripple effect. Your family benefits, your community benefits. You know, we think about these things as selfish, but really what's, you know, more selfish is staying in this comfortable job that we secretly or not so secretly hate and then we're just showing up as a miserable human being to everybody around us. And so, you know, we deserve better for ourselves.
You talked a little bit about, you know, your experience and I do want to talk about your shift and really like what gave you the courage to leave, you know, the corporate legacy that you had been building and working on and to start your own business.
Ava: Yeah, you know, I'd always for a long time thought about that I wanted to do something on my own, but for years and years, I didn't know what that would be. I knew what I didn't want, right? But I still hadn't landed on what it would be. And so it was in one of my last corporate roles that they had coaches on staff. And I remember telling my husband something related to that and he was like, "Oh my God, you would totally love that," right? It was right up my alley in terms of he saw all the self-help and personal development books that I loved to read. And you know, it was him actually, I have to give credit to sort of planting that seed and I was like, "Huh, I think actually he might be right." And so I started to really explore that. I talked with other coaches to really understand what that looked like and to really sort of do that little bit of due diligence.
But, you know, for me, plan A was to build a business on the side while I had the steady corporate job, right? So that I didn't feel that financial pressure and I could kind of do that. Well, you know, life sometimes has a way of throwing you a different plan. And so I was in the middle of a job search when actually the team that I was on in my corporate job got laid off. And actually, it was the severance package that made me think, well, maybe I don't need to get that corporate job.
And I think two things, one, I thought I would always regret not taking a chance on myself. And two, I can always go back and get a corporate job, right? And so it just felt like the stars were aligned and that again, going back to that self-confidence, the thing I know about myself is that when I focus, I can be pretty darn relentless and I can always sort of manage to eventually figure things out and be successful. And so I just had a little bit of that trust in myself and luckily for us, we had a little bit of the financial cushion and I have a very supportive partner. So, yeah, I decided to kind of make the leap and it's been great. I haven't looked back.
Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure like in that moment, it doesn't feel like rainbows and daisies, right? It does feel like you're making such a huge decision in that moment, but I absolutely love those two thoughts that you shared of just like, you can always go back, right? Like, I think we forget about that. That the worst-case scenario is just going back to what you're doing right now. And so why not take a chance?
And then this other piece of like knowing yourself and knowing like, okay, if when I get to, you know, the end of my life and I look back and reflect on what I went for and what I didn't go for, I know that I will regret not giving myself a chance because that's partly what my mission and what kind of life is all about is how do I be intentional and thoughtful about the life I'm living. And so you get to that place where you are nothing but proud of what you accomplished or what you tried to accomplish. And it's okay if you don't get to the goals. I'm always working with people on how do we set goals and then not reach them and have the mental resilience to keep going, right? Because that's part of it.
But really, how can you just be so proud of yourself for even giving it a go, knowing that corporate will always be there? So absolutely love that. What advice would you give that version of yourself who maybe was just starting out with her business? Because I'm sure how you how you think about your business, how you run your business now is very different.
Ava: Yeah, I mean, candidly, first, I would have taken a little bit more time because you're right, getting laid off was a sucky experience. It is for anybody. And again, I was someone who was actually in late-stage interviews with a different company, right? I was ready to leave and it was still awful, right? To have that call and show up and have that experience. And so I kind of wish that I had maybe taken a little bit more time to just sit and be as opposed to kind of pretty soon immediately jumping into like, "Okay, let me just start doing all the things to launch a business," because you don't get that little space and time that I think would do us all good. So that would be one thing.
And I think I have been pretty good about trying to think about everything as a little bit of an experiment and that, as we talked about, right, like I'm be okay with in five years, if I decide this is no longer as exciting, I miss colleagues, whatever the case may be, right, like I can go back. So I think giving yourself permission to recognize that these are experiments and you're going to try and learn and if something doesn't work out, that's okay. And so there's been things in my business that I've done and now might be like, I don't know if I want to keep continuing to do this. I did them. They were interesting experiment. I learned some things from them, but whether or not I need to keep doing them, it helps to not frame it as sort of a failure and as opposed to, "Oh, I tried this thing, I learned something from it and now I'm going to make a different set of decisions."
Jenna: Yeah, I love that. We are scientists in all things. I love having you on the podcast. You are also my like premier recommendation for anybody who comes to me who is just, you know, they maybe found the podcast and they, you know, want to quit their job, leave their job, but maybe aren't interested in starting their own business. You are always somebody that I feel very safe sending people to. How can people who are listening who are in that bucket of they want to quit their job but they want another corporate job. How can they find you? How can they interact with you? What are the best channels?
Ava: Yeah. So, I am, not surprisingly, on LinkedIn. So I post content a couple times a week. So people can follow me there. It's just Ava Lala. And then on my website, AvaLalaCoaching.com, and there's again, tons of free resources to start to kind of get to know me. I have a weekly newsletter where I have career advice and tips and things like that. So, you can find me on LinkedIn or come directly to my website.
Jenna: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for bringing all of your wisdom, your zone of genius to us today. I will also make sure that all of these links, all of the ways that people can connect with you are in the show notes at Jenna.Coach/64. And I'll also put there's a free PDF that I created for the how to make work suck less. So much of what you shared, there's some prompts in there. So anybody who's struggling with, you know, being in that messy middle space of, you know, wanting to leave their job and looking for what's next, that will be a helpful tool. So, thank you so much. I'm sure we will do a part two at some point.
Ava: I look forward to doing that.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of How to Quit Your Job: A Mom’s Guide to Creating a Life and Business You Love. If you want to learn more about how I can help you stop making excuses and start making moves, head on over to www.jenna.coach. I’ll see you next week.
She used her severance package to bet on herself and launch her own career coaching business. Today, Ava is a career transition coach who helps professionals navigate the complex journey from feeling stuck to finding work that truly fulfills them. What I love about Ava's approach is that she gets it on a deeply personal level, right? She knows what it's like to feel trapped in a role that doesn't light you up, and she understands the unique skill set that career transitions actually require. Skills we are never, really taught but desperately need.
As a fellow coach who works in the career transition space, I was immediately drawn to Ava's philosophy that confidence is a lagging indicator, meaning you don't need to feel ready in order to make a change. You just need to trust yourself enough to take the first step and figure it out as you go. In today's conversation, we're talking about everything from reframing your career narrative to make sense of those seemingly random job jumps to practical strategies for surviving a job you want to leave while you're building your exit plan.
All of that and more. I can't wait for you to hear Ava's story and learn from her. I've learned so much from Ava being in her network, and I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did.
Welcome to How to Quit Your Job, the podcast for moms ready to ditch the nine-to-five and build a life and business they love. I’m your host, Jenna Rykiel. Let’s go.
Jenna: Ava, thank you so much for chatting with me today. This episode has been a long time coming. What I love about our work is that we are both essentially in the business of career transitions. So I know you work primarily with folks who are wanting more purpose and fulfillment in transitioning to another corporate role. And of course, I help moms transition out of corporate. But either way you look at it, these are really big changes that our clients are navigating and can definitely create a lot of obstacles and challenges. So in your experience of working with clients in this career transition phase, what have you seen are the biggest obstacles that need to be overcome?
Ava: Yeah. Well, thanks, first of all, for having me, Jenna. I'm excited to be here. I think what people don't necessarily realize is just how much your mindset plays into this. And so that's where I think you and I definitely align. We share a very similar philosophy. Because a job search or any sort of career transition is really an exercise in confidence, right? Being able to feel confident that you can navigate this change, that even though right now it looks daunting, you can break it up into different pieces.
And that you're not stuck. I feel we tell ourselves that quite a bit. So I think people don't realize just how important it is to start first and foremost with their mindset and getting that to feel in a much better place, whether you're in a role where you've got a jerky boss or you're feeling burned out, all of that stuff. You have to shore up your mental resiliency before you can start to make that change.
But the other thing I have realized from my own experience is just how much of the process of a job search is a set of unique and very different skill sets that you need, right? Networking is a different skill, and especially as someone who's an introvert, that is not something that necessarily comes super easy to someone like me, and that's a skill to learn how to do. How to talk about yourself in these three to five-minute sound bites where you are having to sell yourself in a way that most of the time we don't talk about ourselves that way, right? Because we've been trained to not be braggy.
Well, this is a time where you're going to have to learn to talk about your accomplishments in a way that's both authentic but yet confident and shows those results and things like that. And so all of these are different skills. The thing is we've never been taught them, and we only use these a handful of times in our life. So it makes sense that for a lot of people, a career transition is a point of struggle. But one of the things I love that I think came from Marie Forleo is everything is figure-out-able. And so, again, this goes back to why your resilience and your mindset is so important because even though it's a skill you might not have, with the right attitude and mindset, you can go in and still figure out how to acquire that skill.
Jenna: Yeah, I think about mindset and especially the resilience factor as being such a transferable skill, no matter what industry you're in, no matter whether it's entrepreneurship or the corporate world. It's such a valuable asset. I'm curious, there's something you said—I run into this all the time with my clients—where there really is this struggle in talking about ourselves. I'm talking to clients about talking about themselves in the way of really selling their services and their value to potential clients and customers. And it sounds like you similarly work with clients in getting better at talking about themselves. Are there strategies or ways that you help them to do that better?
Ava: Yes, because I think it is quite true that being able to articulate your brand and what you offer is a really important element that helps other people connect and feel safe. They'll pick up on your confidence. And so I think one of the first things that I help my clients do is think about their career narrative and getting them to really feel confident in that and to have a story that makes sense to them. Because so many times I hear people come and say, "I feel like my career's been all over the place," right? That's again, just a made-up thought that is not really serving them.
And so how can you re-engineer your story in a way that it makes sense to you, you love that, and then when you deliver that, it is so much more confident to other people? So, for example, I've had multiple career pivots, and from the outside, it might look like, "What? What are all these disparate things?" But I have done the work to figure out that story around, "First, I started here, but then I had this moment, and that led me to that, and that led me to that," right? And so when I describe that career journey, I feel really good about it, and it all makes sense to me. So I'm able to deliver that then in a way that has confidence and makes sense, so the other person's not going to question that.
So I think doing that work to understand whether you are starting your business and you need to talk about the genesis behind that business and what led you to do that, or where you are in your career and where that has led you to, I think taking that time to think about how you tell that story is really important. And sometimes, I will say, it is a little bit tricky to sometimes do this on your own. So I love this quote also that's, "It's sometimes hard to read the label from inside the jar." And I recognize this even in myself early on. Even as a marketer, I had a problem thinking about how to market myself because I was just too close to it.
So that's what prompted me to seek out my first coach, Marty, who also helped me think about how I want to position myself for that next career change. So it makes sense that sometimes you might need a partner or a thought partner, someone to bounce that off of who can see you a little bit more objectively and pull out those threads and help you create that narrative.
Jenna: Yeah, I love that because that's true with everything in life, right? It's the story we're telling ourselves about the past impacts how we see ourselves, and it impacts how we see this entire journey. There's so much power in being able to reframe the story, especially in our career where we can, as you said, feel really good about it. Because if we feel good about it, then we talk about it more confidently in an interview, we talk about it more confidently with potential clients, we talk about it with friends and family in a way that feels really good rather than feeling like we're lost or it's embarrassing that we've jumped around, or it's embarrassing that we've taken a break, or any of those things. We really can change the narrative, as you're saying.
Ava: Yeah. And here's another thing, here's an interesting example that I often use, too. If you think about going into an interview setting, anybody who's interviewing at that late stage can do the job. Or similarly, if you have a business, you're probably in a competitive space where there are other people who are offering the same thing you do. And so the analogy I use is to think about handbags.
They all do the same job, but a Birkin that sells for $78,000 has a different brand proposition than a Kate Spade bag that sells for $200. And that's different from the Nine West bag that you can pick up at Marshall's for $30, right? They all do the same thing. They have vastly different brand promises and the aura and what they're trying to solve for. And so I think that's something for you to think about: How do you want to position yourself depending on who it is that you're selling to, if you're an entrepreneur, or who you're selling to in an interview setting, right? And who is hiring you, and what is it that they need, and how can you make sure you align as best as possible to that?
Jenna: Yeah, so it sounds like part of it is, A, just knowing your brand or allowing it to evolve and really being intentional about the story and narrative that is going to be evolving your brand, right? The other thing, when you mention the handbags, that I like to say is not everybody's your person, right? So we all know that there are certain people who will buy that $78,000 bag. That is their thing. They love those bags, they love the quality, they love what it means for them.
And then there are other people who would never even consider it. And so whatever you are going after, especially I think about this in entrepreneurship, it's that only really 10% of people are your people. So don't get caught up in the 90% who aren't meant for you. Just focus on how you can connect with those 10%. How do I position my story? How do I talk about my career and credibility and what led me here? But really thinking about, I'm not trying to connect with every single person. I'm just trying to figure out how to connect with the 10% who are my people.
You've talked about confidence quite a bit, or that has been a buzzword. So I'm curious, what are some of the most limiting beliefs that you see in some of the women transitioning careers? And maybe a little bit about how you help them overcome those limiting beliefs.
Ava: Yeah. So there's a lot, and there's a lot that I had, too. So I think one of the—I don't know if you'd call it a limiting belief—but I think a belief that doesn't really help is saying, "I'm stuck." And I was guilty of this, too. But even just shifting the language slightly has a really powerful effect. So instead of just saying, "I'm stuck," something like, "Every week, I'm taking one small step to figure this out." Right? And it's just a slight reframe, but that again brings you back into power and control. Like, "I'm in control of this. I just need to take one small step," right? And so that can keep you moving forward.
I see a lot of people who tell me that they aren't excited about the work they're doing, but they keep going back and looking at job descriptions that are essentially the same thing. It's because it's the known and comfortable and familiar, and it makes sense because your brain is like, "Yeah, I know how to do that. That's safe." And so working with clients to really unpack what the fear is behind that. What would it mean to take a bigger job or do something different? And to really unpack, because at the end of the day, I think a lot of this comes down to a fear of failure.
And really helping to reframe that failure is really not a failure; it's just a set of learning, right? You now have different information that you didn't have before around are you a good fit for this type of work, or what type of culture do you need to thrive, or any number of things. So really unpacking some of the fear underneath it, because I think that's another element of that imposter syndrome, right? The fear of being found out that you're really not as good as people think you are. And so what does that actually mean, and how can you break that apart?
I think one of the things, I don't know, Jenna, if you relate to this, but I see kids and they're so fearless, right? Learning how to ride a bike, no one YouTubes it, researches it, talks to a friend, "Should I ride the bike or not?" right? Kids just get on and they do it. And somewhere along the way, as we turn into adults, we start to feel like, "Well, I can't do it before I'm ready." But actually, I talk about confidence being a lagging indicator. It comes only after you've done the thing a few times and you're like, "Oh, actually, that wasn't that bad," or, "Oh, I need to tweak this, but I'm getting better and better and better." And so confidence comes after you just start to do it, and you learn by doing. So that's a big thing that I help clients also remember.
Jenna: Confidence is, "I've done this thing and now I know I can do it, so I'm confident." And self-confidence is a different concept, which is, "I have never done this thing before, but I trust myself that no matter what happens, I will have my own back and I will be able to figure out what's next," right? Coming full circle to this, "Everything is figure-out-able." So if I have the self-confidence to try this career path that is completely new to me or this industry or whatever it is, and I fail terribly, whatever that means to each of us, right? I know that I can move forward. I know that it will be learning. I know that I'll have my own back to know what to do next.
And that really takes the teeth out of doing new things because we all lack confidence doing something new because that's how it works. We've never done it before. But having this self-confidence and trust in ourself to be able to pick up the pieces afterwards, learn from it, have the resilience, the mental resilience to keep going down whatever path, that is truly the golden ticket, I would say, of creating a career, a business, a life that you love, is being able to do something you've never done before and have your own back through it.
Ava: Yeah, and I think the benefit, Jenna, that you and I have is that we tend to work with individuals and women that are at least mid-career or who have had enough life experience to probably know some things about them. And I think that's where I would go back to. One of the questions I ask clients is, what do you know to be true about yourself or what do you like about yourself? And so, you know, one of the things that has come with age that I've learned about myself is that when I really focus, right, and I'm determined, there's very little that can deter me. It might take a long, long time, right?
And so if you go back to again, having going back to the self-confidence, what do you know to be true about yourself, right? You're super resilient, or you figure things out, or you can like, once you put your mind to something, you are determined and it always ends up working out for you. Like, those would be some of those things that I would hang on to in the, you know, your thoughts as you're going through this process and remind yourself because that's that self-confidence that you talked about, that belief in yourself.
Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. Like what is the value that you can add even if you've never done this exact thing before. I love that. So I want to switch gears a little bit because we have talked about this offline a bit and, you know, I had a whole podcast episode, episode four, one of the early ones about how to make work suck less. And I want to talk about it because so many of the people you work with, so many of the moms I work with, they really are trying to get out of, whether it be a toxic work environment, they're burnt out, they feel underappreciated, insert any number of reasons that we might be really disappointed in our current career and wanting to change it.
And I'm curious, how can somebody in your opinion, make work suck less? How can they get through this transition process where they're looking for a new career, they're looking for something else in whether it be corporate or starting their own business, but they still have to show up each day and get the paycheck and support their family and pay those bills. What are some tips or skills that they can embody to make that process a little less miserable? Or let's say to make it suck less, just to stay on brand.
Ava: I've definitely been there. And especially, you know, it's very, I was building the business on the side while I worked in a job and then it got to a point where I too was like, okay, I'm over this job. I need to get out. And so one of the first things that hopefully your audience knows from just from listening to you, but is a good reminder, is that nobody else creates how you feel. You are in charge of that, right? It is your interpretation of what your boss did or what your company just did, right?
And so if you have this thought, my boss is a jerk, everything that he or she does is filtered through that. And so once I started to recognize like, oh, I'm the one making myself feel miserable, I now had a choice. So I worked with my own coach and one of the things that helped me is I literally thought about, as I walked through my office doors, putting on a cape, right? And I told myself, I can play this role of an engaged employee for a short period of time, while my heart and my other side of me is focused on finding that new job and launching my business.
And so getting into, again, going back to the mindset and what you want to tell yourself, right? So, you know, another thought people could borrow is, this is paying the bills while I figure out what's next. Or this is giving me, you know, the space and time I need to do that. Or maybe my boss doesn't have the management skills and that's why she's being a micromanager, right? It's not on me. She doesn't know the skills and tools and she's never been taught, right? And starting to have some compassion. So I'd say the mindset part is one of them.
Two, again, for most women, we tend to probably do a lot. And so this might be the time to go back to doing 80% effort in your job so you can start to free up some time. And I know that feels really weird to tell people to do, but chances are, at some point in your career, you were probably giving 110%. So it's okay to now work a little less. And the other thing is you're doing a disservice to your company by staying there and not being an engaged employee, right? Somebody else would love to be in the spot that you are. And so if you're not engaged, you owe it to the company to do everything you can to get out and move on because someone else does want to be there who's going to give 110%.
And then the other thing I would say is, again, even if you're in that situation that you don't want to be, you can start living into your future self from now, right? So this is what I did was, I spent every morning when I was, again, really anxious to get out of my environment, spending 10 minutes envisioning the perfect interview and a really great type of culture. And I just thought about that and got into that space and again, that helped me bring and minimize the energy of the day job that I didn't really like, knowing that it was temporary. It was just a matter of time because I was already in that better scenario. So hopefully those are a couple of different things, both tactically as well as some mindset stuff to help you make that transition or feel good while you're in the process of making that transition.
Jenna: Right. Because one of the most important things, especially if you're trying to build a business on the side, you need that mental energy to be making the best decisions for your business and to be energized when you're working on your business. And so, you know, I always, I give the example of when we are constantly complaining about our job and how draining that feels. Not necessarily for the person we're talking to, although that is the case, but for us. And what I love is when people do start focusing on this new project, this new business, even if they feel like they can't add anything to their plate, it actually gives them so much more energy. It makes the plate bigger when they have something really inspiring and motivating and fulfilling to focus on.
And then yes, the corporate job that you have, you know, that you're building this exit plan with, is your ATM and it's funding your dreams and it's allowing you to have energy for that next project. So I absolutely love that. I would also say, you know, to your point of, I completely agree, if you are not committed to your role, absolutely find something else, but you owe it to the company, but you also owe it to yourself, right? It's like when you are staying in a position that just doesn't light you up to any degree, it's like, you either figure out how to make it work for you and figure out how to love it or you leave it, right? And you are empowered. You can make that choice. But yeah, absolutely, you absolutely owe it to yourself as well.
Ava: Yeah, you absolutely need to put yourself first.
Jenna: And to think about it as when you do put yourself first, there's a ripple effect. Your family benefits, your community benefits. You know, we think about these things as selfish, but really what's, you know, more selfish is staying in this comfortable job that we secretly or not so secretly hate and then we're just showing up as a miserable human being to everybody around us. And so, you know, we deserve better for ourselves.
You talked a little bit about, you know, your experience and I do want to talk about your shift and really like what gave you the courage to leave, you know, the corporate legacy that you had been building and working on and to start your own business.
Ava: Yeah, you know, I'd always for a long time thought about that I wanted to do something on my own, but for years and years, I didn't know what that would be. I knew what I didn't want, right? But I still hadn't landed on what it would be. And so it was in one of my last corporate roles that they had coaches on staff. And I remember telling my husband something related to that and he was like, "Oh my God, you would totally love that," right? It was right up my alley in terms of he saw all the self-help and personal development books that I loved to read. And you know, it was him actually, I have to give credit to sort of planting that seed and I was like, "Huh, I think actually he might be right." And so I started to really explore that. I talked with other coaches to really understand what that looked like and to really sort of do that little bit of due diligence.
But, you know, for me, plan A was to build a business on the side while I had the steady corporate job, right? So that I didn't feel that financial pressure and I could kind of do that. Well, you know, life sometimes has a way of throwing you a different plan. And so I was in the middle of a job search when actually the team that I was on in my corporate job got laid off. And actually, it was the severance package that made me think, well, maybe I don't need to get that corporate job.
And I think two things, one, I thought I would always regret not taking a chance on myself. And two, I can always go back and get a corporate job, right? And so it just felt like the stars were aligned and that again, going back to that self-confidence, the thing I know about myself is that when I focus, I can be pretty darn relentless and I can always sort of manage to eventually figure things out and be successful. And so I just had a little bit of that trust in myself and luckily for us, we had a little bit of the financial cushion and I have a very supportive partner. So, yeah, I decided to kind of make the leap and it's been great. I haven't looked back.
Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure like in that moment, it doesn't feel like rainbows and daisies, right? It does feel like you're making such a huge decision in that moment, but I absolutely love those two thoughts that you shared of just like, you can always go back, right? Like, I think we forget about that. That the worst-case scenario is just going back to what you're doing right now. And so why not take a chance?
And then this other piece of like knowing yourself and knowing like, okay, if when I get to, you know, the end of my life and I look back and reflect on what I went for and what I didn't go for, I know that I will regret not giving myself a chance because that's partly what my mission and what kind of life is all about is how do I be intentional and thoughtful about the life I'm living. And so you get to that place where you are nothing but proud of what you accomplished or what you tried to accomplish. And it's okay if you don't get to the goals. I'm always working with people on how do we set goals and then not reach them and have the mental resilience to keep going, right? Because that's part of it.
But really, how can you just be so proud of yourself for even giving it a go, knowing that corporate will always be there? So absolutely love that. What advice would you give that version of yourself who maybe was just starting out with her business? Because I'm sure how you how you think about your business, how you run your business now is very different.
Ava: Yeah, I mean, candidly, first, I would have taken a little bit more time because you're right, getting laid off was a sucky experience. It is for anybody. And again, I was someone who was actually in late-stage interviews with a different company, right? I was ready to leave and it was still awful, right? To have that call and show up and have that experience. And so I kind of wish that I had maybe taken a little bit more time to just sit and be as opposed to kind of pretty soon immediately jumping into like, "Okay, let me just start doing all the things to launch a business," because you don't get that little space and time that I think would do us all good. So that would be one thing.
And I think I have been pretty good about trying to think about everything as a little bit of an experiment and that, as we talked about, right, like I'm be okay with in five years, if I decide this is no longer as exciting, I miss colleagues, whatever the case may be, right, like I can go back. So I think giving yourself permission to recognize that these are experiments and you're going to try and learn and if something doesn't work out, that's okay. And so there's been things in my business that I've done and now might be like, I don't know if I want to keep continuing to do this. I did them. They were interesting experiment. I learned some things from them, but whether or not I need to keep doing them, it helps to not frame it as sort of a failure and as opposed to, "Oh, I tried this thing, I learned something from it and now I'm going to make a different set of decisions."
Jenna: Yeah, I love that. We are scientists in all things. I love having you on the podcast. You are also my like premier recommendation for anybody who comes to me who is just, you know, they maybe found the podcast and they, you know, want to quit their job, leave their job, but maybe aren't interested in starting their own business. You are always somebody that I feel very safe sending people to. How can people who are listening who are in that bucket of they want to quit their job but they want another corporate job. How can they find you? How can they interact with you? What are the best channels?
Ava: Yeah. So, I am, not surprisingly, on LinkedIn. So I post content a couple times a week. So people can follow me there. It's just Ava Lala. And then on my website, AvaLalaCoaching.com, and there's again, tons of free resources to start to kind of get to know me. I have a weekly newsletter where I have career advice and tips and things like that. So, you can find me on LinkedIn or come directly to my website.
Jenna: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for bringing all of your wisdom, your zone of genius to us today. I will also make sure that all of these links, all of the ways that people can connect with you are in the show notes at Jenna.Coach/64. And I'll also put there's a free PDF that I created for the how to make work suck less. So much of what you shared, there's some prompts in there. So anybody who's struggling with, you know, being in that messy middle space of, you know, wanting to leave their job and looking for what's next, that will be a helpful tool. So, thank you so much. I'm sure we will do a part two at some point.
Ava: I look forward to doing that.
Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of How to Quit Your Job: A Mom’s Guide to Creating a Life and Business You Love. If you want to learn more about how I can help you stop making excuses and start making moves, head on over to www.jenna.coach. I’ll see you next week.
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